jcrowquill:

ourfinalproblem:

jcrowquill:

ourfinalproblem:

jcrowquill:

ourfinalproblem:

jcrowquill:

Does anyone really think Moriarty’s surprised or moved by Sherlock’s little bit about angels and commonality in Reichenbach?  That is totally his sarcastic surprise face.  We’ve seen it before.

…

that sure as fuck isn’t his “sarcastic surprised” face. the gif you posted happens before sherlock’s talk about angels and being moriarty etc. 

It’s right after the “I can still do it if I have you” bit.  My mistake.  In any case, I don’t think he’s sincere. (I’ll update my post though.)

i’m genuinely curious: what in andrew scott’s performance makes you think he’s being sarcastic or insincere? everything from the tears glimmering in his eyes to the wavering of his voice and the softly swelling music in the background seems to suggest otherwise…

Moriarty has already shown himself to be a fantastic actor.  I mean, in the Richard Brook segment, even Sherlock actually has a moment of absolutely flipping his shit.

In all reality, I think that Moriarty is likely dead.  Otherwise, any major character who’s been killed has been not-really-killed.  Irene, Moriarty, Sherlock.  So I’m not saying he’s sarcastic as in “he’s pretending to kill himself.”  (Though if he was, I wouldn’t be bothered.  There are few things I would have loved more than to have that final pan in the cemetery show Jim casually checking his cell phone rather than Sherlock looking brooding.  That would have been such an epic cliffhanger!  I also have some major issues with some of the issues brought up by the way the season ended, but that’s something else entirely.)

That said, I don’t think he had any major revelation of Sherlock being amazing that made him feel so squishy that he blew his brains out so as not to spoil the moment.  There is no possible way that Moriarty didn’t realize that Sherlock had no intention of dying… ffs, “let’s go meet alone on the roof of a medical facility where the pathologist is a girl who’s totally in love with me?”  Seriously, Sherlock?  There is little in Scott’s performance that makes me think that Moriarty really thinks that Sherlock is going to kill himself and that they are going to their deaths together.  Sherlock won’t actually die to save his friends, he’ll just pretend.

The entire rooftop conversation is rather backhanded… and I feel that what Jim sees in the “we are alike” discussion is that Sherlock is like him in some ways, but with limitations.  Sherlock does have attachments, which Jim does not… and there are things that Sherlock won’t do whereas Jim will do just about anything.  Sherlock is dependent on Jim in a way that Jim isn’t dependent on Sherlock… in Hound, it was implied that while Jim was in custody, there were no crimes going on.  What would Sherlock do without him?  I think Jim realizes that he is smarter than Sherlock.

So the conversation ends with Jim blowing his brains out… and winning, irrevocably.  It is THE last word and everything leading up to is pretty much just screwing Sherlock over.  He has made Sherlock as alone as he is and damaged every one of his friendships… I mean, come on.  Molly is fucked when he comes back - Falsifying an autopsy is serious shit.  John is heartbroken.  Lestrade is in deep shit.  Because Sherlock’s reputation has been so maligned, criminals who Sherlock legitimately put away are appealing to have their cases re-examined (per the ticker on the bottom of the news story on John’s blog).  Sherlock will never get back the time that he will lose with John and his friends… and for the moment, he is absolutely nothing.

More than that, even when Sherlock does eventually clear his name… which is going to be very, very difficult without some sort of Mycroft help, he will never have opportunity to rub it in Moriarty’s face.  He will never know why he killed Carl Powers, and he’ll never know much of anything about him… at all.  It’s like the ASiP pill all over again, but without learning something new in the process.  What sort of results does he care about, really?

So yeah, I see that last conversation as being a major “fuck you.”  He didn’t say “You win” before he put the gun in his mouth, he grinned like a fucking psycho and told him “good luck with that.”  And the look on Sherlock’s face when Jim killed himself while still holding his hand?  To die for. ;)

moriarty is a fantastic actor, this is true. but there are significant filmic differences in the way the scene on the rooftop is rendered and the way the jim from IT/rich brook scenes are. the score choice in the background i find particularly telling: it’s emotionally charged and intense enough that i find it incredibly difficult to ‘buy’ that the affective impact of the scene will at any point be undermined by a revelation that moriarty was being insincere. another thing about the moment that i find striking in a way that can’t be ignored is the light on andrew scott’s eyes. both steven moffat and mark gatiss have commented on the ‘blackness’ and ‘blankness’ of them as being the most chilling thing about moriarty. it makes him look less than human (i believe gatiss worded it as ‘it makes it look like there’s something else inside him, peering out.’) in literally every other scene moriarty appears in, his face is purposefully lit to enhance this glassy blackness (even in scenes when he’s in daylight.) directly after sherlock makes his claim about not being on the side of the angels, however, the lighting of the entire scene shifts to reveal the color of his eyes — it’s impossible to ignore how bright and brimming with emotion they are here when their usual blackness has been given particular attention throughout the entire episode. (and the fact that moffat and gatiss have spoken so much about moriarty’s eyes really leads me to believe that the attention paid to the lighting on them was purposeful and not merely coincidental.) it’s a filmic cue that we’re seeing something new in moriarty — something human. 

“There is little in Scott’s performance that makes me think that Moriarty really thinks that Sherlock is going to kill himself and that they are going to their deaths together.”

is there anything to suggest otherwise, though? there’s also little textual evidence to suggest he DOESN’T think his plan is going to fully work out. he seems quite despaired that beating sherlock proved itself so easy. also, the ‘point’ of molly’s role in TRF was that sherlock knew she’d be overlooked. sherlock himself overlooked and paid little attention to her and doesn’t realize how significant she is until he’s begun to work out what moriarty has planned for him. he knew moriarty would never count on molly figuring into sherlock’s plan. “i don’t count.” 

“The entire rooftop conversation is rather backhanded… and I feel that what Jim sees in the “we are alike” discussion is that Sherlock is like him in some ways, but with limitations. Sherlock does have attachments, which Jim does not… and there are things that Sherlock won’t do whereas Jim will do just about anything.  Sherlock is dependent on Jim in a way that Jim isn’t dependent on Sherlock… in Hound, it was implied that while Jim was in custody, there were no crimes going on.  What would Sherlock do without him?  I think Jim realizes that he is smarter than Sherlock.”

there’s no textual evidence to support this.

and as for moriarty’s suicide being his ‘irrevocable’ winning move: moriarty has no interest in the game anymore. he treats it with nothing but contempt and is pretty unambiguously ticked that “ordinary sherlock” was so easy to beat. the final problem was staying alive, and he was ready to solve it by losing to sherlock. by the time this point in the conversation has been reached, it’s been made pretty clear that moriarty is unbearably bored by the game and wants out. there was undoubtedly an element of ‘fuck you’ to his suicide, but the game was rendered pretty useless by this point. they both lost and they both won a little. there was nothing clear or absolute about any of it.

(i’m not stating any of this as fact — it’s my interpretation, and i actually thank you for presenting a well-thought-out response and impressive analysis. but i thought i’d defend my own reading.)

Interesting points, but it’s one where we will have to agree to disagree.  I don’t think that Jim shot himself in a braingasm of intellectual emotion.  I maintain that he shot himself out of spite because he’s a childish, impulsive prick who wanted to get in the last word and has no limits because he’s a psychopath.  And to be honest, that is what makes me okay with the strong possibility that he is gone for good.

Music is deceptive.  Homage to Kubric in the first scene… music can be completely twisted to manipulate the listener.

Part of it is because I do think that Moriarty and Holmes are equally matched, but with different aptitudes.  Sherlock points backwards, Moriarty points forward.  Because of that, Sherlock is better suited to cleaning up after Moriarty rather than out-thinking him.  What is one example elsewhere in the series where Sherlock handles a situation by planning out future events?  (Honest question - I can’t think of any situation that was favorably handled based on Sherlock planning.)

Looking at the set-up itself… Jim knows the hospital well; he placed himself there as the “IT guy” and would have had intimate knowledge of the terrain, the grounds, the staff.  Surveillance. And Molly.  Ten minutes with her would be enough for him to know that she would do anything for Sherlock.  The fact that he presumably doesn’t care about her is immaterial in that regard.  Months of watching Sherlock would let him know that Sherlock will use anyone, at any time, for any purpose.  As evidenced in Hound, even John is a chess piece to be used.  I don’t think that Moriarty would discount any of Sherlock’s acquaintances, friend or foe, as a tool that Sherlock might use in the future and the location alone would ring some alarms.

The end of Reichenbach doesn’t sit well with me because I think that the story is too… I don’t know, immature to kill off Moriarty?  I’m not saying the episode or the writing, but the world itself.  Sherlock doesn’t know anything about Jim, his world, his web.  In The Final Problem, Holmes knows everything about Moriarty and he’s pretty much figured out all of his operations and rounded up all of his men.  The two of them are both willing to die to stop the other; in this, both are willing to kill themselves.  Except that Sherlock isn’t even that.  Sherlock is not passionate enough about saving anything to ACTUALLY sacrifice himself.  As a hero, he is not yet mature enough. (Which is the main reason why I could potentially see a return of Moriarty where they defeat each other rather than themselves.) 

I don’t think that you can deny that even if Moriarty has lost interest in the game, he has nonetheless won.  Sherlock is ruined.  Even if Sherlock filmed the entire rooftop conversation, Brook has been established as an actor; and how perfectly James Bond that conversation was.  It was exactly what Sherlock would have paid an actor to say to clear his name.  Then how convenient - Richard Brook has either committed suicide (double suicide, but Sherlock is alive?) or has disappeared without a trace.  Clearing his name isn’t impossible, but it will take time.  Meantime, he has been thoroughly discredited.  Lestrade has lost a lot of clout at NSY, Molly has really fucked her professional integrity, and John’s heart is broken.  Sherlock can’t come back right now.  Unlike in the Final Problem, where it was only fear of one man that kept Sherlock on the run, in the BBC world, Sherlock is just utterly fucked.  He’s technically still wanted for questioning in the kidnapping case.

Anyway, I’ve lost my main line of thought… which is sarcasm.

There is never anything expressly stated that the final problem is staying alive; it could just as easily be assumed that the game has always been trying to find the most suitable way to die. I don’t know that I support that particular theory either, but I am just saying that if we are relying solely on the characters outright stating facts or their feelings at any given second, then there’s not much for either of us to go on.  Similarly, I don’t think that Jim has necessarily abandoned the game at all, as the main points of his identity hinge on the fact that he is fucking brilliant and ridiculously competitive.  That is how he and Sherlock are the same.  Sherlock would kill himself to prove he’d been clever enough to pick the right pill, but he had someone to save him.  Jim didn’t, but has just as much to prove.

I think that Jim not realizing that Sherlock isn’t intending to die would strongly undermine the Jim’s frequently-demonstrated intelligence and the knife-point precision of his plans.  Similarly, I think it would be an incredibly cheap death to say that Sherlock tricked him into it.  I think that all of his choices were premeditated and the gun in his pocket was never intended for Sherlock.

(Maybe I should also make the disclaimer that while I love Sherlock Holmes and the BBC version is pretty fucking great, I do think Sherlock is a douche.  I love him to bits, but I can’t say that I like how he’s handled this situation or how he treats his friends.  Don’t get me wrong, I am a huge John-Sherlock shipper, but Sherlock has deeply wronged John many times and John is a unique person for standing by him.)

Anyway, there’s my bit. :)  I stick to it.